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 Post subject: ewp electric controller
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:20 am 
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I noticed a couple of days ago that davies craig have a new water pump controller, DC8020.

looks ok, has some good features (like time down, etc), and isnt that expensive.

Has anyone used them before?

I remember the older model was used by a few members on here, who didnt seem that impressed, especially with the way it controlled the pump while cold/warm.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:37 am 
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I installed the new digital controller 3 weeks ago.

VERDICT: It kicks ass.

The old model used a capillery type sender (you fed it through the hose), which was a pain in the ass. The controller was inaccurate and didn't provide stable enough control. It run too cold or too hot and I frequently readjusted it and had to play with resistors to get it running hot enough, even with a thermostat.

The new model uses a compression fitting. I tapped a thread in the water pump housing on the exit from the engine (immediately below the alternator) and fed the sender through the compression fitting, which screws in.

The temp readings are spot on under all conditions. You set the temps using a push button. I have it set to 90'C, although 85'C would be fine. My thermo fan kicks in at 92-94'C and rarely comes on, if at all. Temps sit between 85-90'C while driving and occasionally settle to 80-85'C at idle. The heater works ok too.

Engine reaches operating temps in about 2-5 minutes depending on the ambient temperature.

When set to 90'C, the pump will be off until the sensor reads 70'C. From 70'-85'C the controller will cycle 5V on and off every 5 seconds to evenly warm up the block and avoid cold coolant thermally shocking the engine when the pump kicks in. From 85'C-90'C it ramps up voltage from 5V to 13.5V. This controls temps brilliantly.

In my setup, it will still run too cold without a thermostat because the radiator is so efficient. I run a 82'C thermostat with a bypass drilled in so that the thermostat operates correctly.

The only thing that will make my system better is to incorporate a proper bypass and use an unmodified thermostat. This will improve temperature consistency, warm up times and heater performance. It will also reduce the risk of thermal shock if during warm up, the EWP shoots too cold coolant from the radiator into an already warm engine.

The other brilliant feature is that the new controller has a trigger for a remote warning light. It comes with an LED which I mounted in the dash. If an error condition is detected, the EWP will switch on full blast in case the engine is at risk. The LED will flash and the controller will show up an error code. It will pick up EWP failure (short or open circuit), under temp, over temp, voltage problems etc.

The other good thing is that it has an auto run-on feature. when you switch the ignition off, the EWP will run at full blast (13.5V) for 2 minutes or until the temperature reaches 5'C below your target temperature.

So in summary, the controller is rock solid. If you can't get stable operation with this one, the problem is elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:55 am 
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cool, somehow i knew you'd be one of the first to answer in this thread :)

so you still had to keep your thermostat, and thus your water pump body. Ideally, i'd like to remove the pump and body, so is there another way of incorporating a thermostat? Are there universal inline thermostat bodies?

other than that though, yea it seems a fair bit better that the older model!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:17 am 
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Yeah this is something I've been researching as part of my EWP how-to.

Mg and Elise owners has a big problem with the design of the cooling system Rover K engines which can be remedied with a remote universal thermostat housing. Land Rover dealers actually make a kit for K-engined Freelanders.

This could be used on a rotary for an EWP application because you can use a 82'C thermostat. It has a bypass too, which you plumb pre-EWP, eg either into the heater return pipe or via a fitting in the bottom radiator pipe. You would replace the water pump housing with an inlet/outlet flange and place the remote housing in the top/return radiator hose. You would want to install the EWP senser into the outlet pipe, preferably at an angle so it goes into the front engine plate to get a better temp reading when the engine is warming up and coolant flow is low.

There is some info on remote thermostat conversions here:

http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/

There are aftermarket remote thermostats, but fn expensive (125 pound!):

http://www.qednet.demon.co.uk/rk/remotestat.htm

I also found this guy's page - he installed a remote thermostat for an EWP setup in a supercharged 4AGZE equipped MR2:

http://www.e-wire.net.au/~nrparker/MR2/ ... engine.htm

It's probably easier and cheaper to modify the mazda water pump housing and use thermostats that are available from mazda. It can be modified to work with a bypass with a little thought.

If anyone knows of any other universal thermostat bodies with a bypass, please post here!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:39 am 
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I can't find a price for the new controller on the website?

has anyone actually got a price on it?

I have a pump and old controller (and modified pump housing) purchased from adsy01 that will go in my s3 eventually, and i have helped put a similar setup (blanked off housing can't remember what we did with therostat) into RotorisE's FC.

Putting it all together, putting in the resistor and playing with the "dial" that wound to infinity (something with end stops would have been better) was a bit confusing. It works great now but the new one looks really good and a lot easier/tidier/profession to set up.

Can someone help me with a price? and if i get RotorisE to buy it throught work (mechanic apprentice) will i get it any cheaper??

thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:44 am 
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Actually Evans make one with a bypass and it's a more reasonable US$99.95. It comes with a 195'F thermostat, which is too hot for a rotary, but I think there are 180'F (82'C) thermostats available too for $9.95.

And the good news is Evans has a local dealer in Melbourne. They are an aircraft parts dealer (they sell Rotax plane engines too!): http://www.bertfloodimports.com.au/ I'm going to check whether they stock the remote thermostat. I've just emailed them.

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Last edited by KYPREO on Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:51 am 
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Slides wrote:
I have a pump and old controller (and modified pump housing) purchased from adsy01 that will go in my s3 eventually, and i have helped put a similar setup (blanked off housing can't remember what we did with therostat) into RotorisE's FC.


Adsy's setup is based on what mine is. It does work and developed through much trial and error on my behalf, but was definitely fiddly.

Quote:
Can someone help me with a price? and if i get RotorisE to buy it throught work (mechanic apprentice) will i get it any cheaper??


Around $230. I got mine through Paul at VPW and their ausrotary discount. A lot of the stockists are trying to get rid of the analogue controllers, so they probably aren't promoting the digital ones too much yet.

PS..I've got an analogue one for sale :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:30 pm 
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thanks


might stick with the analogue until i go injected and then just run it with computer (haltech or something with good outputs)... although that probably removes to after shut down flow unless i flick the ignition on and off and stay in the car :lol:

does anyone know what you use to boost the signal from the ecu if you use it to control something like that, i presume that the computer output could not carry the full load of the pump??


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:02 pm 
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IMO there's no reliable way to run the EWP with a computer. You could use a mappable PWM output, but you need to map it against temperature which I don't think you can do - it's usually rpm/load.

The required flow rate is determined by so many variables. Plus you can potentially cause engine damage on warm up if you use simple on/off outputs because a sudden flow of cold coolant from the radiator into the engine can thermally shock the housings and potentially warp/crack them.

A simple mechanical thermostat is the ultimately the best way of controlling temperature because it will adjust flow on the fly and pretty much get it right.

But the Davies Craig digital controller is a great way of supplementing it. combined with the thermostat it will give even greater stability with temperature, quicker warm ups, the overrun feature, plus diagnostics. The analogue is fine with a thermostat, albeit a little limited, inaccurate and clumsy, but on its own it's useless IMO. On the right system the digital controller could do things right on its own.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:10 am 
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ahh ok, cool. Good to see they exist.

The demon ones look nice, although 125 pounds is a little steep.

let us know greg if you get a reply from Bertflood imports

cheers


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:28 pm 
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I haven't received a response - I will need to telephone them. In the meantime, I've emailed Evans directly with some questions but it may take a little time to receive a reply.

The other choice for a remote thermostat housing is much more brutal. The bypass channel in a series 5 water pump housing is long and quite well cast around it. You could actually slice the entry side of the water pump housing clean off leaving only the exit side (where the two gauges plumb in, the bypass channel, and the thermostat recess). Then you could tap/press a fitting into the bypass channel and use the factory the thermostat housing.

Where the housing used to mount against the engine front plate, weld a suitable pipe end.

It would end up weighing less than 1kg.

Brutal, but effective and you could use an inlet/outlet flange and side mount the alternator.

Personally I'd just pay money for the evans one though.:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:06 pm 
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I'd imagine someone with access to a CNC or a lathe can make these up also?

The problem is though, how many people on here (and elsewhere) will be interested in one if someone actually took the initiative and made them up? might not be worth it for them i guess.

yea, i'd probably prefer to buy one than go through the trouble of modifying, cutting and welding an existing one, and will probably come to the same price (or near) anyway.

These examples above, wrt the bypass, does it start to close once the thermostat starts to open, or is it open all the time?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:21 am 
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man im down

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:17 am 
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Got a quick response from Evans...

Quote:
one of our dealers carry parts, usually they only carry
our coolant only.
The bypass port is a 3/4 inch .FYI
The thermostat is a self contained unit. It does not come apart. We
call it the beer can, because it is roughly the size of a beer can with one
port in and one out with the bypass on the side. As of right now, I do not
have any 180degF t-stats in stock. I have 195 and 160's only. It is a
hi-flow unit as well................Tom


So it is available with 180'F. 160'F (71'C) is too cold IMO. It's not serviceable but if it's a decent thermostat it should last a long time.

app13b wrote:
The problem is though, how many people on here (and elsewhere) will be interested in one if someone actually took the initiative and made them up? might not be worth it for them i guess.


I'd say not many. Most people who run EWPs are racers who would content running the EWP with no temperature control.

Quote:
These examples above, wrt the bypass, does it start to close once the thermostat starts to open, or is it open all the time?


When the thermostat bulb senses 82'C, it begins to open and the bypass begins to close at the same time. At around 88'C, the bypass would be almost fully closed. The actual thermostat wouldn't be at peak operation until 95'C - at this temp, the bypass would be firmly shut and the thermostat fully open. However, most systems seem to stabilise at around 85-88'C when everything else in the system is performing optimally, so there wouldn't be much bypass at this temperature.

running a bypass should cost you any cooling efficiency once the system is up to operating temp because it should close.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:28 am 
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cool :)

yea, even though its a sealed unit, you would rarely need to replace it, so not really a huge issue.


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