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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 pm 
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RICE RACING wrote:
rotorpsi1 wrote:
that zonda graph has a bit of a womble driver in it.

the g trace for gearshifts is aweful.you should NEVER reach zero g on a gear shift if your any good,especially when in a supercar. i like to see most peoples g trace on shifts about 1cm or more above the line or better.that zonda could be shifted twice as fast as that im sure of it.



For the benefit of others in any doubt as SOON as drive is disconnected (clutch disengages engine from input shaft of gearbox) the car is not being accelerated any more, speed trace will drop and G force will go negative due to rolling resistance and wind resistance, if you cant measure this then save your pennies and buy some equipment that can,learn how to use it, THEN post your vast experience on the internet ;)


ok,

go and get your gear,get in your sp as i have my rough idea of what that should shift in,go and shift the cunt as fast as physically possible,and i mean AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!!! ( i will know if you have).log the g trace and post the graph up.i am not going to dispute the proof,i have no problems with that,but i am keen to see what the trace really does with the fast reading vbox gear then.

for your car i expect 0.45seconds or less or dont bother posting graphs as your not shifting it fast enough,if u go sub 0.4sec then thats perfect for the test.

get out there shifting and post up the graphs.

regardless ,my original point was that those gershifts ARE NOT fast enough.

_________________
sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Brad89 wrote:
Pete,

I'd like to see how much of a difference thee is between a dyno reading and the Vbox reading, is there a local shop close to you that you're able to do a couple runs on?

Brad


Brad I have tested many cars (tuned here then owner has taken it to dyno comp or another place to get a Hollywood number), that average difference is 15% less is shown on my formula & VBOX V's DD, some cases its averaged closer to 18% or more difference. In real world a 272rwkw DD RX7 will do 60-130mph in 11.2 seconds & a 275rwkw VBOX RX7 will do it in under 8.5 seconds! There is a massive difference in performance.

The classic/typical hype 240rwkw twins RX7's with poofter dyno sheet, will struggle to do much more than 200rwkw on my VBOX :)

Page 16 of this thread Brad89, I talk about it in depth if you want to read it and list examples as well from customer car tests done a few months back.

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Last edited by RICE RACING on Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:33 pm 
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rotorpsi1 wrote:
RICE RACING wrote:
rotorpsi1 wrote:
that zonda graph has a bit of a womble driver in it.

the g trace for gearshifts is aweful.you should NEVER reach zero g on a gear shift if your any good,especially when in a supercar. i like to see most peoples g trace on shifts about 1cm or more above the line or better.that zonda could be shifted twice as fast as that im sure of it.



For the benefit of others in any doubt as SOON as drive is disconnected (clutch disengages engine from input shaft of gearbox) the car is not being accelerated any more, speed trace will drop and G force will go negative due to rolling resistance and wind resistance, if you cant measure this then save your pennies and buy some equipment that can,learn how to use it, THEN post your vast experience on the internet ;)


ok,

go and get your gear,get in your sp as i have my rough idea of what that should shift in,go and shift the cunt as fast as physically possible,and i mean AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!!!! ( i will know if you have).log the g trace and post the graph up.i am not going to dispute the proof,i have no problems with that,but i am keen to see what the trace really does with the fast reading vbox gear then.

for your car i expect 0.45seconds or less or dont bother posting graphs as your not shifting it fast enough,if u go sub 0.4sec then thats perfect for the test.

get out there shifting and post up the graphs.

regardless ,my original point was that those gershifts ARE NOT fast enough.


Here you go (this shows how quickly + G translates to - G when you measure with decent equipment). 3rd to 4th this is for when the clutch fully releases pressure on the drive disks thus no drive from motor = negative G after only 0.05 seconds.

I suggest you throw your G_tech POS in the bin and stop ranting in my threads with your experience until you get some decent gear :lol: THEN sprout on about how shit gear shifting is and how G should never drop to 0 let alone go negative lol........ it's got NOTHING to do with speed ! or lack of it as you wrongly suggest! as soon as drive is fully disengaged you have NO ACCELERATION rather you have Deceleration ! this is why cars don't keep going on for infinity after you boost it yo!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:45 pm 
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At ~160kmh in a RX7 you will have -0.000G after drive is fully disconnected 0.05 seconds(in a road car conventional manual how fast you shift is irrelevant to this fact) as soon as its fully disengaged its below 0 g and then takes a fraction of a second 0.190 seconds to settle on the amount of G loading caused by the aero dynamic load *average of -0.100G* (relative to speed) and the frictional losses of the tires and drive line (clutch disengaged).

Your G-Tech experience is greatly confused by inaccuracy (especially in quick transient change conditions like disconnecting drive or power interruption)

Hopefully you see the error in your statement and will take a look at all your files and wonder how accurate they are given you are under the false assumption that G does not go to zero let alone negative in your mountain of invalid tests ;)

PAGE 1 (pdf test) of my thread highlights the potential problems with a G-Tech *You have fallen victim to its many errors mate* I hope this has helped you and others as to what actually happens when you cut power delivery and its effect on vehicle speed when measured at a high frequency and with very precise equipment. G drops super FAST and it goes NEGATIVE, how long it stays negative is down to how fast you can change gear as you say correctly.[/color]

To calculate the actual driven power to the wheels as I do you need to know the Deceleration (in neutral!) -NEGATIVE G from the Acel +POSITIVE G (this is why G-Tech's graphs are FUCKED! because they have no ability to differentiate them, this is why your power is [color=#FF0000]lower the higher gears & speed you pull using their guesses! they DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE INCREASING NEGATIVE G LOADING! it does get SO HIGH that it will CONSUME ALL of your + G thrust read on!), so the [b]net left over is the +motive force "what gets you the velocity" I can plot out for you the curve of negative G from 10kmh to 300kmh as is measured in a coast down test to establish these figures :)........... This is why you cant keep on accelerating to 500mph in you had a mad diff ratio YO! because driving forces or resistances keep going up relative to speed to the point where the NET force = ZERO (your cars MAXIMUM TOP SPEED *net power = net resistance forces* thus no more acceleration = no more higher velocity ! SIMPLE.)[/b][/color] < So you r near 1 G positive force in second magically reduces to 0.1 G say in 5th gear near peak power, where did the other 0.9 G go????? it is counteracting the NEGATIVE 0.9G produced by aero loading and the resistance to rolling by the tires and drive line parts, so again as soon as you disconnect drive from the engine to the rear wheels *AND YOU HAVE A DECENT INSTRUMENT TO MEASURE WITH* you will see -NEGATIVE G very quickly (this is why the car slows down between shifts, no matter how slow or fast you do it in a normal manual gearbox) as I proved to you in a Graph you asked for.

In Summary !

- Negative G happens at any speed
- The faster you go the more it is
- I have proven it happens after 0.050 seconds and this time is physically how long it takes you to gradually disconnect the clutch and for the inertia of the net positive acceleration to be counteracted and overwhelmed by the aero dynamic forces at play (+ the mechanical resistances at play) this takes around 0.190 seconds as shown by me.

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:26 am 
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I would have loved to have had this junk even to test out a few things on my old Weber fed RX-2.

How much faster are you by flat shifting vs lifting off the throttle, finding optimum shift points, and proving that squeezing the throttle open gives you the same if not better acceleration than stabbing the throttle.

Have you thought about an ignition cut on shifting so you can hold the throttle flat on the shifts?

Me personally I'd be getting a decent length gear stick as I always found a longer gear stick allowed much faster shifts than stubby short things that take away all the mechanical advantage. Personal choice though that one.

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:28 pm 
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I have flat shifting on the Race Logic Traction Control and in some cases I use it, the only benefit it has on a syncro gearbox is that it allows you to hold the throttle flat and you loos less turbine speed as spark cut and recommencment in much faster than the action of the throttle to control engine speed. The shift time is not changed as that is a ratio of the blocker rings to gear syncro and speed down of the next gear as done by the syncro if that made sense to you or most others reading this.

Spark cut flat throttle shifting is in most cases smoother than using the throttle to modulate/release the engine load, your still using the clutch though just so there is no confusion in a syncro box.

In a face engagment dog ring equipped transmission you need to run a strain gague on the gear lever as the spark cut method (allowing clutchless shifts without engine load) rather than a clutch switch *like I use in my syncro equipped road transmission* these can benefit from the reduction in time but at the end of the day you are splitting hairs really, totally pointless even from most track people. It is not worth the extra wear and tear to achieve a .2 second per lap gain over 2 minutes, especially not in hobby $10 plastic trophy racing :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Dazz wrote:
I would have loved to have had this junk even to test out a few things on my old Weber fed RX-2.

How much faster are you by flat shifting vs lifting off the throttle, finding optimum shift points, and proving that squeezing the throttle open gives you the same if not better acceleration than stabbing the throttle.

Have you thought about an ignition cut on shifting so you can hold the throttle flat on the shifts?

Me personally I'd be getting a decent length gear stick as I always found a longer gear stick allowed much faster shifts than stubby short things that take away all the mechanical advantage. Personal choice though that one.


^ More directly to your question.... FLAT SHIFTING as applied on an old school set up has an effect in that the stored "energy" in the flywheel causes a spike in the G once the clutch is re engaged (say 8000rpm) v's the 6000rpm required when the next gear is selected. As a result of this spike in G (extra power and acceleration hit) you end up with a net performance gain assuming the clutch can transmit the extra stored energy in the flywheel and its not wasted in either wheel spin or clutch slip. I have one RX7 on file (stock where the customer used this technique to gain extra performance in acceleration tests :) and with high tech gear you can measure and quantify the gains. Though I would not do it to my own car lol! and he did sell it with a fucked gear box to an unsuspecting car dealer anyway, after he had his fun with it :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:55 pm 
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I know from my "sphincter dyno" that flat changing in the RX-2 when it was turbo'd definitely gave a gain in acceleration over the traditional lift-shift-re-accelerate technique.

There's a definite knack to doing it without killing the box too, but once you get it right it's great. In the RX-2, just before you shift, you put very light pressure on the gear stick, and you find as you approach your shift point, you press the clutch, and as soon as the clutch begins to loose pressure you feel the gear stick go light and you begin to pull it through. By the time you get it to the neutral position the clutch is almost disengaged, and it will pop into the next gear without any problem at all.

You will get a slight flare in RPM, but when you get it all coordinated, depending on just how much power the engine has you should be able to keep it down to a couple of hundred RPM give or take. With the rev limiter set at 7,600rpm I could shift at around 7,200-7,300rpm and not touch the limiter.

There's no need to grab the gear stick like a gorilla either, I used to use two fingers wrapped around the gear knob and that was all the pressure needed to shift. I did use the longest gear stick I could find as well as this makes the shift action very light. Forget about the argument about a short shifter only needed to move the stick a shorter distance, because the effort and notchiness involved removes any advantage. I'll promise you can shift a light load twice as far just as fast as a heavy load half the distance. Look at the V8 Supercars, even before the sequential box came in, and see how long a gear stick they use. Short shifters are for boy racers, real men have long sticks :laugh:

There is also a lot to be gained from getting your clutch set up with the right amount of travel, as often you will get disengagement in say 70% of pedal travel. So there is nothing to be gained in pushing it to the floor, you are simply wasting time and effort. When it's all set up you just dip the clutch rather than pushing it all the way in and again it works a treat.

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:49 pm 
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once again,my original point was that the zonda gearshifts are slow and not good enough.

i am happy to accept that g force goes to and below and that a gtech is not fast enough to read it.no worries.

my measurements are comparitive to other vehicles on the same gtech.not to official test gear,as i said again with the gtech,i tell people to keep the gtrace up,and for anyone using a gtech rr this will show up as i mentioned ,and now as rice pointed out wont track the gforce fast enough and will be inaccurate .

this is how i show people how to improve their times.u can see before and after the difference once they stop sissy shifting.

that said,its not my only measurement i use,u have teken it way out of context into a rice rant, i also look for time from power disengagement to full power re-engagement after g-dump forces.

all in all point taken.

that zonda still is a slow shift :D

now you have finished winging about my and gtechs can you go back to posting data from your car now :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Your basis for the "slow Zonda shifting" is totally misplaced, instead you should ask what smoothing has been applied to the visually seen graph trace for the longitudinal G ;) rather than jumping to conclusions. Would you like me to measure it for you exactly and post another graph? or are you willing to take my word that its shifting is not slow.

I can post at least 3 different tests from Car & Driver to various Euro rags who all match that VBOX test I have in my own evidence folder ;) same mph too :) trust me its not slow at all, infact its the opposite you are suggesting mate. It is an easy mistake to make when you are not familiar with the equipment nor the software and I can see maybe how you could jump to the wrong conclusions (go off half cocked).

P.S. On this equipment if you want to look in fine detail and try to examine shift speed from a G trace you need to turn off all smoothing on the Long G channel, THEN you could try and read into a graph, but most people would complain at seeing a "noisy" fast acting highest dynamic setting recording and not understand why there is such variation in the recording. So for display purposes these channels have various levels of smoothing applied so they make a pretty graph that most wont complain about and makes much more sense to the layman who does not work with this type of equipment as much as I do or other professional testers do.

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Here is the Graph zoom up of G and speed scale (this is only 25hz data as it was recorded on a $8500 VBOX2SX) but anyway its good enough to capture the real information of what is happening. This is the 2nd to 3rd shift (slow WOMBLE SHIT DRIVER! lol) feel free to say sorry at your leisure :lol:

Shift speed (taking into account all lead up information I gave you about clutch disengagement then re engagement and speed trace trending back up with engine reconnected to input shaft) = 0.260 seconds ;) ALL SHIFTS in that 1000m test are the same.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Highly doubt it unless you have slicks on a drag strip and can run a 8 sec pass :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:58 pm 
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RICE RACING wrote:
Here is the Graph zoom up of G and speed scale (this is only 25hz data as it was recorded on a $8500 VBOX2SX) but anyway its good enough to capture the real information of what is happening. This is the 2nd to 3rd shift (slow WOMBLE SHIT DRIVER! lol) feel free to say sorry at your leisure :lol:

Shift speed (taking into account all lead up information I gave you about clutch disengagement then re engagement and speed trace trending back up with engine reconnected to input shaft) = 0.260 seconds ;) ALL SHIFTS in that 1000m test are the same.

Image


i will not say sorry.

ok,

if clutch disengagement is near instant (0.05sec) then would shift time not be from 6.55sec to 7.10sec at which point full load of g dump from full clutch engagement has taken place,then gforce settles to actual output at 7.2sec.

with my shitful knowledge and no nothing experience i would measure that from that g trace as a 0.55sec(6.55-7.1sec) change which is not too bad but not brilliant.

afaic - a gearshift is from power disengagement to full power re-engagement regardless of all other variables.but i am retarded and as you have pointed out :lol:

_________________
sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:12 pm 
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We all learn mate, no hard feelings and you are not retarded at all, just enthusiastic ;)

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:19 pm 
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righto ,im still not convinced of the 0.260sec shift but i am also bored of this convo.

new posts of information from the vaginabox from the sp.

wikileaking it wont work,all it wil do is get you rape charges and jail time.

_________________
sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:25 pm 
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post up mclaren f1 if you have it for a qtr mile speed vs time

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sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Jase all I will say is you need many years of data collection and analysis skills to be able to interpret what is actually happening, believe me I am right in what I say ;) also keep in mind even at 25hz you loose some details (I am using my experience of running 100hz to fill in and tell you what is happening from my experience here). I am getting bored as well but I think you have learned and we will move on ;)

I'll post up "some things" when I feel like it :) now stop derailing my thread with trivial shit :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Here is the graph showing some detail of various parameters & performance. Average figures between test lines shown (Avg-b) *report screen* and peak on datum line of graph in top left box snapshot of instant Graph data figures at that point.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:41 pm 
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turbine pressure lower than intake all the way.nice :wink:

can you do a boost and shaft speed graph.thats the thing we all want to see.

_________________
sold- w/i - pbgt45 -e420c- 550rwhp on 24psi - pump fuel - s2 rx7 -
best e.t - 12.234
best mph - 130.25mph/211kmh @ 22psi on street
0-100 - 4.0
0-160 - 7.6
0-200- 11.4
highest speed - 307kmh @ 8000rpm (rev cut 8800rpm)


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 Post subject: Re: RACELOGIC VBOX, (performance & real world power analysis)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:18 am 
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rotorpsi1 wrote:
turbine pressure lower than intake all the way.nice :wink:

can you do a boost and shaft speed graph.thats the thing we all want to see.


I can do that, but will you believe it :lol: I'll post up some other incremental times of the F40, I have 3 separate tests (one factory) two independent (USA and UERO models) and on peak power band test 60mph to 90mph and 70mph to 90mph I have ........

60mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 2.70 seconds
USA F40 = 2.90 seconds
RICESP = 2.59 seconds


70mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 1.90 seconds
USA F40 = 2.10 seconds
RICESP = 1.76 seconds

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